Shana Marie

CL
Hi Shana, thanks for joining today. I just wanted to ask you a couple of questions...

Before uni, did you know anything about graphic design? Were you told about it at school? Or what what made you decide to study it?

SM
I've always been creative, I just didn't know what graphic design was. So in school, I was was good at drawing and painting, but I didn't know that was a fine art. I did graphic design when I was in, you know when you pick in GCSE when you pick which ones you're going to do? Because I was doing graphic design, probably in year 7/8, I was like, oh, I like this.

When I was doing that in school, it was very much like product design and it was very logo based, and it was like, Oh CAD machines, what's this? I was like, okay, that's very technical, still interesting, but it was very physical making.

So again, I had no idea actually what graphic design was, and then I went on to doing it for A-Level. Again, there was no real 'this is what you can do, this is what you're gonna learn, these are all the jobs that can go through it'. It was just like, I was good at it, so I thought I would like doing it and it didn't feel like work, so if it could work, I'll keep going.

But it's quite sad that throughout all that education, no one really told me what graphic design was and what I could do with it... Then when I went to uni, that's when I was more independent, and kind of like, did my own research and figured out, okay, these are jobs that are in there – Uni kind of like, helps a bit to aid, what it was more about, and that could be things that you could do a bit, but perhaps a lot of research to figure out, like, what jobs? How I could fit in, just like to learn more, but yeah, I've gotten quite good at ads so I'll continue and just figure out.

CL
It was a similar a situation for myself, I did art as well, but one teacher kind of mentioned graphic design, but they didn't really go into detail about it, and I, my A-Levels where more fine art based; diving into the deep end, not really knowing, going well, I think this is what I want to do, I enjoy it.

SM
It is weird, because even up until A-Level I was still drawing a little bit, but it was only until the graphic design course, I didn't really get the correlation, because I didn't even use any softwares until I got to Uni, which was weird. I think I probably used Photoshop once to make a technically really simple animation, but I didn't know what I was doing, because my lecturer at the time, when I was in college was very like, "oh, I'll help you but I'll do it for you." So I had no idea. Like, what's your computer? I didn't know what computer to even get out. I went into my first year of uni with a MacBook Air, which to do graphic design isn't ideal, because of the fan and all the spinning, it can't really hold all the programs, I had no clue.

CL
I just wanted to talk a little about, the kind of other barriers you've been coming across, what kind of barriers you think they are and how you think, how you personally been addressing them, and how do you think the industry could address them?

SM
Okay, so barriers... I have personal ones, but I also have societal ones.

So being from a traditional background, my mom wanted me to be a nurse, because she was a nurse, and didn't really understand creative subjects and that you could actually make money from them. So trying to sit her down and be like, I want to do this and I'm gonna be fine doing this. It took her a very long time to understand it, but I came by, and I go draw until they know what I do. She thinks I just make stuff and she says, yeah that looks nice, but she doesn't really get what graphic design actually is.

In terms of like health, I was diagnosed last year with chronic pain and joint hyper-mobility syndrome, which is basically, I'm really flexible, so my joints move beyond the average person, which then leaves me in a lot of pain. Stuff like cold weather, my diet, things like that kind of interfere with it. So, that can be quite hard when you're using software, if you're doing very mechanical things, and your wrist just gives way one day, it's just like, that can be quite hard. I'm kind of always on painkillers or go into physiotherapy, just things like that, to maintain a good quality of life. So in that sense, that is like a mad barrier, otherwise it's just like, what do I do?

How can I continue doing what I want to do if one day I'm not able to do it, because I just can't move or something? Hopefully, we won't get to that, but that's – I'm trying to prevent anything serious, it is a long life situation, with no cure. It's just like, trying to make things easier, and maintain a good quality of life is a bit hard in this country, anyway, when there's no sun, there's no, it's always cold, it's always raining, and that obviously affects me. Yeah, so that's a physical barrier that I go through.

In actual industry itself, lack of representation is such a big thing. Even at uni, when I look around the classroom, about 70 people, there's only like three or four people that look like me. Then even if they look at me, maybe not, they might not identify as a female, or they might not be, so it's like slim pickings to find someone I can relate to. Then we have like industry talks, and they're all like white men. It's just, again, there's no one that looks like me here. But instead of that being like a massive barrier, I decided to be like, okay, I'm going to go, I'm going to succeed, and I'm going to be the representation to someone else. Plus, I feel like you have to kind of look for representation, so you can't just be depressed if there isn't any being shown to you, go look for it. I think I did that, in my second year of uni just literally, did a lot of research to find a lot of like companies that just are black, or had a lot of diversity within them. That's kind of inspired me more to just, to keep going.

CL
Have you found that has informed the way you've done your work, or come up with the different ideas as well, with your work, as well as trying to find companies that have that representation and more of an inspiration to you?

SM
I feel like my intersectionality of being a woman being black being of a certain like working class background definitely inspires my work what I decided to talk about, especially this year, particularly topics like gentrification and knife crime, just things I actually care about, and like passion projects, makes me want to continue to do what I want to do. That really drives me on because no one else can talk about my situations because they didn't even experience it. So I'm using like, my experiences on what I believe in as like my superpower. To keep going, keep driving me forward, keep inspiring me. I did notice that a lot of companies that I was looking at where like that as well, for example, The Elephant Room, talk about diversity and inclusion, and that's no surprise that they have two black female employees on their boards, things like that. So, just looking for companies and looking for things that inspire me, then helps.

It's just a shame they're not shown to us at all. Even though I've kind of like said to them, "hey, can we get some females?" Even if we get a female worker, black female, or like a black male, it will help. I mean they're trying, but it's not quick enough.

I'm gonna graduate soon, I'm gonna have only one, no that's a lie, probably two female speakers, one was like Jack Renwick, and the other one was Ellen Lynch, the copywriter from Manchester, I believe. I was just like, that's cool, but that's not enough, and they don't look like me, so their experience is always gonna be different to mine, but fair enough they're women, but then to be black on top of that. Yeah, you face a whole other bits of barriers. Which is hard.

CL
It's amazing that you're taking the initiative. You shouldn't have to take the initiative, but it's amazing that you are and you're using it almost to be that voice of younger generations moving forward as well, being part of that collective voice that will be inspiring.

SM
Yeah. Before you can even fall down like, while there's no one here that looks like me, or even if they look like me, they probably wouldn't act like me because they came from a completely different walk of life or come from a different background to me. I was always kind of like the odd one out – I'm black, I'm from South London, I speak a certain way. Even when I worked in different companies, I would always be the minority, and yeah, it'd be hard sometimes, I'd feel like I don't fit in.

But now I'm like, I don't want to fit it anymore. I want to be different, I'm going to make sure that I'm different. For people that are like me, that they're seen, and that can inspire someone else to want to join somewhere, I might kind of work from the inside, if that makes sense. So like, rather than always go in and try to find, like, all black companies, why not go somewhere and try to diversify that, even though it kind of will be a bit hard. You might face a lot of stigma, racism in the process, but if you can change someone else's opinion, it just takes, it takes one person to then like, bring other people in and like, be like gatekeeping, or like nepotism trying to bring people in that you know, start by somewhere else.

CL
Absolutely, I found for myself, as a freelancer, a lot of the time, you don't get the opportunity to raise this or if you do its not always, its always seen as an off hand comment. So I'd think, maybe I just wont come back here, which is actually the wrong situation really, because it doesn't actually help change. As you said, sometimes you do need to be in there.

SM
It's all so hard, and it kind of like contributes to imposter syndrome. Because then you just feel like, I don't deserve to be here, like I'm so different, like, they're gonna find me out, that I'm not like them. You know, I mean, it is hard, it is not great for your self esteem. But if you can handle being there and try to change people around you, then you can kind of do it, if only if you can manage it, though, because otherwise its not good for your own mental health.

CL
Exactly. That's the most important thing to look after.

CL
It's good that we're talking about that much more as well across the board. Creative industries always has a notion of working hard, playing hard and that really does need to change. That's another, thing to make agencies and people aware of as well; mental health is really important. It's good that these conversations are happening.

SM
Yeah, because even when I was doing my placement year, I was so different everyone around me. For the first few months, I've always felt I was tiptoeing around people. I wasn't enjoying my time, because, just I felt like I'm not being the real me. I was having to like, code switch a lot around people, especially because I was probably the only, I was only black female, well one of two, she was Portuguese, but I was the only of Caribbean heritage female in the office. I was the youngest already, because I was on the placement year, everyone was like 25 and above and above. So I'd have to code switch a lot because everyone was probably from Manchester, or they had just moved to London and everyone's just white. It was like a team full of mostly white males, a few white females, but that was like the setup.

It was just like, this isn't fun, I'd stop being unapologeticly me, and then with that, I was still kind of seen as like funny or sassy. Or like little microaggressions that come with "oh Shannie you changed your hair today". Yeah, I did, why is it like a big topic of conversation now? But I think as soon as I started to just be me and just don't care, I then started to kind of enjoy it a little bit, but then COVID happened, and I got furloughed. Being yourself, kind of does help things like, being mattered. People need to stop kind of code switching and stop trying to people please, because if you do that, then you're not being fair to yourself, and then you kind of don't enjoy your time anyway.

CL
No. It's almost like people are trying to fit into another club. Whereas the whole purpose of being creative is to

SM
is to be yourself and bring a new perspective.

CL
Exactly, exactly. That's what really needs to be driven forward, again, I feel its being lost a little.

SM
Which is so unfortunate, I don't understand why.

CL
Fear, fear of not fitting in. When you should be just proud of who you are, and confident as well. A lot of that is representation and being able to see that you can go far, and go as far as you want to go and have all the experiences that you want to within, whether it's the company you're working with, or the industry, or side hustles that you want to do, that you should be able to do that and not have those barriers in your way.

SM
That's preventing you or stop you from wanting to be yourself. Yeah, I agree.

CL
How do you see yourself going and moving forward as a creative, like, what are you really passionate about? Creating?

SM
I didn't realise this. So I started doing therapy this year, because I was like, I need to work on myself, and I think a lot of people did that as well. But I realised that, I started to subconsciously pick topics that were around design activism, and I didn't realise this was what I was doing when I was doing it. I just thought, yeah, especially when it's so interesting, but I was realising that design activism is something that I potentially want to go into. Maybe if it's like, as if it's a side hustle. Like my full time, what work I'd want to do. I think I want to bring a voice and a perspective that no one kind of talks about.

I find that when most people get to the top of the industry, they kind of forget where they came from, and they're no longer discuss things, of how they used to be or used to go through. Yeah, sounds like I want to be voice for people that don't have a voice, but make it look beautiful, and purposeful. I feel that's kind of the route that I want to go in.

I've got a few things that I've been thinking about and trying to, like, possibly in the works, coming soon after I graduate, that I'm excited for. That's cheering me on. Okay, like Shana, make sure you pass, make sure you go far in your degree, you can actually work on things that you actually want to do because if you don't do that then, what's the point?

CL
Absolutely!